I’ve been sent a few images of advertisements currently running in a newspaper in the West Midlands. I thought I’d share them with you, although I’ve edited out the company details for obvious reasons.
I’ve long been of the opinion that advertising in newspapers is a waste of advertising revenue, as there are fewer and fewer people using newspapers to find double glazing companies. People use the internet these days.
The other reason I feel advertising in newspapers is a waste of money, is you are competing with irresponsible installers like the following:
Example 1
This company suggests it has been trading for 19 years and offers a GGF insurance backed guarantee. Consumers will need to ensure they get this, as selling uPVC windows for £159 each, and doors for £385 they’ll need it.
Example 2
This company is offering a full house of windows for £1200. I’ve got over 30 windows in my house, so I better give them a ring, as we’re looking at less than £40 each!
Example 3
This company is showing pictures of conservatories that are clearly at least £12,000 conservatories, but suggesting that they can do them for £3,999 (inc fitting and base). For those people that can’t afford to pay only £3999 for a conservatory, they can even pay in 12 months!!!
Example 4
Actually, this is the best deal. Conservatories for £2999 with free tiles or blinds, and free electrics!
Come on guys. I have no problem with price advertising, but starting at such low figures is not only undermining your own profit margins, it undermines the whole industry.
I realise that this is the way you feel you can generate most leads, and by advertising a better deal than your competitors you feel you’re going to get more calls than them. And, I realise that you don’t really sell at these prices, but the problem is that when you start so low, even if you’re good at upselling you’re still going to struggle to get to a sensible, sustainable price for your work.
Consumers are being price conditioned by such advertising, and the knock on effect is that professional operators, whether they like it or not have to compete try compete with these prices.
As an industry, we need to start competing on quality and service, and not on such ridiculous prices.
Tags: conservatories west midlands, conservatory prices, double glazing prices, double glazing west midlands
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Or maybe the consumer market is fed up with overpaying?
What’s worse? High prices with dodgy salesmen offering overinflated prices with “only of you sign up right now” discounts is certainly no better.
If only it was the case that high prices g’tees quality and service.
Perhaps the cheaper guys are just buying better as well
Johnboy – I’m not saying high prices are the way to go either. If installers need to advertise prices, then at least they need to be something like reality.
I mean, can you install a house full of windows for £1200? Or a conservatory for £2999? No matter how keen your buying prices are these prices are ridiculous.
And, if they are buying cheaper, then these crazy prices are feeding up the supply chain, which creates further chaos. Honestly, this type of advertising is not good for the whole industry.
These ‘crazy glazing’ company’s have been about for years. Let them carry on doing what they’re doing, They’ll go tits up in no time! Surely it’s up to the skill of the salesmen to overcome any price objections that these stupid adverts bring up.
mad mad mad thats what i say, johnboy may not understand that companies advertise these prices but cant honer them its a joke, as customers belive what they see and think its true they expect the silly prices as seen in newspapers and such like !!
Phil – ‘crazy glazing’ like it!
Carl – good to have you back!
There is a piece of analysis which would be useful to see. How long since a name change, change of ownership after going bust or a pre-pack for each of these companies?
If you think they won’t ‘honer’ them just complain to the ASA – if you they can’t deliver the 2999 conservatory it will be an open and shut case.
The ASA slap won’t mean much to any of them but their media buyers and the media owners have to take notice of the rulings and will refuse to run similar ads on their behalf. Job done.
Same goes for online – you don’t like the price advertised then complain to the big G and they will verify the claim. I’ve done it to quite a few competitors and there advert text changed pronto.
Maybe these offers reflect what is truly on offer. Sub standard product, sub standard installation and a 10 year guarantee that they have no intention of honouring. The other thing to consider are the paying the VAT & taxman if not they are quids ahead of the rest of us and doing ok, when it catches up with them pre pack and start again happy days for them. Not so good for the rest of us
Amazing. I’m guessing they’ll just be trading under a different name every year…
I’m not sure what the problem is – I mean, this price led advertising has always been used as long as I can remember, but only in the free papers. I do a few leads for a company just like these ones, the company has changed it’s name 4 times in ten years. No shock or surprise there, neither to any of us or the customers who use them.
I work for another company who use a mix of T.V, press and internet marketing, they charge top dollar.
I also work for a company who are arguably the most expensive conservatory company you can buy from. They advertise in the broadsheets and on the internet. This company’s profits for the year just gone are four fold up on 2008.
For me the most important thing is to know who your customers are. How many times has it been said on other blogs on this site that the customers are much more informed. If your dealing with customers who are more informed then that means they research on the net and deal with company’s who have a strong website presence. These customers wont phone the free paper advertising companies.
Lastly, I lost a conservatory deal the other week. The customer had 4 quotes, I was the cheapest at £11k, the nearest quote to me was £15k. The client didn’t buy from me because he was convinced I would be cutting corners etc, basically for being too cheap, enough said I think. You can all rest well in your beds tonight, let the free market reign supreme.
I’m going through a torrid time down here in Wales being undercut everywhere, not by hundreds but by thousands, even Safetstyle are at it they took a job from me for £800 leass than I could do it, it was only a door and two windows …. But saying that it’ll probably get upped on survey and seen as the guy has paid a 50% deposit he’ll have no choice to pay it as if he cancels they’ll charge hiim a survey fee which will snatch the deposit anyway.
I think we’ve got to start looking at the consumers, they are the people keeping these guys in business, alot of people throw logic out of the window ( no pun intended)when it comes to money, especially when it’s windows, nobody really buys new windows as a desire (or not many anyway) and they are just interested in the price. The majority of the time you can’t say well Mrs Jones (I’m Welsh) they are more because I put money aside for aftersales, I have to pay for a surveyor to come out, I have to pay for advertising, I have to pay for the salesman, I have to pay the V.A.T. man nearly 20% of that and the list goes on. By the time you actually work out the profit element the guys driving round in their vans charging less and fitting a crap product are making more profit on the job than I would.
Perhaps we all think about the industry wrongly, perhaps we should all have little vans working as little cost centres in their own right and the guy in them is a saleman, surveyor and fitter all rolled into one.. The Utopia of double glazing sales.
Only problem is I don’t believe that! I believe people should be able to go and see what they are going to have fitted at a showroom, they shoud be able to talk to people for references, they should be able to contact someone if something goes wrong, and they should have the full guarantees of a decent sized company. What consumers have to understan is there is a fair price to pay to have that service, it’s all well and good haggling to get the best price but the companies still have to make money or what’s the point.
Alot of my competitors locally are on two and three day weeks and I suppose this is why they are trying to buy the business to keep going, but in the long run it effecs all of us and unfortunately the big guys with the backers and the big overdrafts are the ones who win out in the end. So buyers beware at some point a decision will have to be made do you really want good service and a great product or do you just want price. Because you can’t get a low price and great service generally don’t happen.
Funny this was my quote of the day sent to me by google!!
As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it.
– Dick Cavett
YOU ARE ALL MISSING THE POINT WITH THE PRICE ADVERTISING, £2999 FOR A CONSERVATORY WOULD YEALD A HEALTHY PROFFIT IF YOU DONT PAY YOUR BILLS!!!
We all know the industry has a very tarnished reputation.
People “buy” people.
Thankfully, the quality of salesmen I go up against is, generally, very poor. The majority of customers realise there’s no such thing as a “free lunch”. There will always be people who go bargain bin shopping and then, thankfully, realise what a mistake it was. Property developers and landlords are a good source of business in the cheap and nasty market. They’re welcome to them.
If you have integrity, honesty and a sound reputation, there is little more you can do. I’ve lost jobs being the cheapest and the most expensive. I’ve also won jobs being both.
No two customers are the same and the decision sits squarely with them. They will either believe the truth from you or the bullshit from Johnny Sharpsuit.
I personally get very nervous going up against cheap work. I walk away as I don’t want the hassle of failed expectations from the customer.
Let these companies spout their gimmicks as it can only re-inforce what genuine companies offer. Let them change their name like their underwear. Let them fail customers with ridiculous offers they can’t honour.
Do you really want to deal with customers who have the mind set of seeing these offers as good value?
I don’t.
Strange.
There is a Conservatory Outlet dealer who is putting leaflets out offering conservatories from £600
Alex – sorry, I think you’re mistaken.
Ah , come on RCG ,
but a deal is a deal !!!
Thats not fair , I’ve got a customer lined up for that one , Ok , so he is paying me 15K for it
Interesting the GGF would be happy their services are being endorsed by companies clearly misleading the public …
Gimmicks must obviously sell or generate leads… going by the websites linked to most posts on RCG it is common to see 30% discounts, free this or that…being offered…
Personally I would rather meet customers who are more interested in the right product for them in terms of quality and aesthetics opposed to seeking the cheapest solution irrespective of quality or reliability (yes of course once this demographic of customer finds a company they are comfortable with they wish for value for money and may negotiate… though I suspect they would avoid the sort of outfits placing the advertisements shown above like the plague…)
Ron – were you connected to Classic Conservatories?
Edward – people do respond to special offers, discounts and freebies.
As I said in my post, I have no problem with price led advertising. My issue is when you start with such a low price you undermine the market place as a whole.
Re- 1st advert on post 6 windows £957 (i am notts based and have been upselling for 10 years) the way i would justify that to my customer would be 6 windows £957 + vat = 1130ish external sills £30 each frosted glass £50 . £75 survey fee so far i would be at £1400 ish and thats before toughened glass/extra openers/render/box sashcappit etc all good earners . Doors £385 same again sill frosted glass claw locking (all extra) and the main thing would be panel upgrade. Before u know it i am at the side of most competitors and that is when i can start closing and have room for a little drop . prior to working offer led leads i had 7 years working for someone in notts who did 40-50% off rrp (more grief than price led offers)and i can honestly say hand on heart a decent salesman wouldnt have a problem increasing these price led ads by at least 50%with such a low start price. with the glazing market being so tough i personally think if it gets u in the house that is what its all about.By the way i can be sure there is no one out there who has had the six windows for £957. also a decent salesman would rip these offers to bits when with a customer. Each to his own i suppose i personally do price led e.g 6 windows 1 door £1800 all in . i would be dissapointed if i didnt get £2-2200 on that lead which sometimes makes me dearer than someone who isnt price led.As a small company i personally would like to see people advertising doors at £6-700 but as they say if u cant beat em join em and that i shall do rather than sitting in the office thinking why doesnt anyone want my doors at £800 i shall be making a living at the £5-550 mark sorry for rambling also not all cheapies are fly by night last one who i worked for before i set up myself was trading under same name for 15 years………….
Lee – when we set up in business 16 years ago, our first adverts looked very similar to the ones above. I do understand the concept – we used to upsell in exactly the same way as you have just explained.
It is because I have experienced this way of selling first hand, that I now know it’s not the way to go.
We used to advertise 6 windows for £1200 – any size, one opener. I went to one house and the guy wanted to take me up on the offer and was ready to sign a contract on that basis. As all 6 windows were at least 2400 x 1500, I tried every different way to get the price up to something reasonable – extra openers, 6mm glass, external cills etc. I got to £1800 from memory, and it would have still been a good job. The guy was really annoyed about it, so to calm matters down I suggested I go bring my sample in from the car. When I returned to the house I found my brief case stood outside the front door and the door shut.
Don’t get me wrong, if we got a call for 6 windows in stone mullions we were happy at £200 each. But, on the whole, we got pretty bad leads, in bad areas, with people chipping us down on price.
It was only when we dropped this style of advertising that we started to grow our business successfully.
Matthew
Edward – Yes, a few years back now.
hi rcg- i appreciate and fully understand your reply but as a small company with a small marketing budget it is very difficult to generate quality leads (people after quality) i suppose its all about the investment in marketing but as a firm which needs turnover to pay bills i cannot imagine a marketing campaign which may take 6 months to get rolling .hats off to u guys that can sell at 4-500 window but with no investment to sell on quality i am happy making a good living doing what im doing. I must note as well i dont sell rubbish i am doing solely synerjy window large outer frame good hardware warm edge spacers 9 point locking on doors all as standard. Maybe in a few years when i am more established and a little richer i may change my strategy but to be honest i am glad to be surviving and earning in such a tough marketplace. i also think some dont like price led offers as it demeans the prices some charge due to large overheads and also less profit for the man at the top. i would think exactly the same if it was me at the other end regards lee
I wonder how the protagonist of this type of misleading advertising, would react if they went into a shoe shop with shoes advertised for £10-00 only to be charged a further £10-00 for each set of laces, £10-00 each for soles, and £10-00 for heels.
My guess is that most folk wouldn’t step inside again, and tell the proprietor that he was a rip off merchant by way of leaving.
The scenario sketched by Lee is basically a P**S take that reflects a certain cynicism, and a complete lack of integrity by the individual & Company toward a potential customer.
I bet they even tell vulnerable old folk that service calls are extra cost, when called up to correct faulty workmanship, if they can be bothered to go back at all.
Spot on Ian. Upselling, in the main, is a foot in the door way of selling and is disrespectful to the customer.
You know that (generally and certainly on house fulls) obscure/toughened glazing will be needed, that external cills will be needed, that means of escape vents will be needed.
Each to their own but I’d rather mainatain my integrity as someone who gives the customer the products they require, without having made outlandish suggestions.
Well said Ian and endorsed by Simon.
hi, simon and ian , i would like to see what your marketing campaigns are like ! maybe 30-40% off for a limited period ha ha, i think a lot of the comments are sour grapes because when it comes down to it you and i both know our products are on a similar footing but as a “quality salesman” you may be brainwashed into thinking your more expensive product is better. I personally and so do my customers think your sort of company take the piss by suggesting your doors for example are £1200 then with the 30% discount you can do for £840 in my view that is taking the mick, reason being i bet the last time you sold one at list was to an old dear who you prob wore down with 2 hours of waffle. my style like the ones in the post no doubt are if you are looking for a decent price without all the kidology of a super duper window firm “give us a try”. One point i wish to mention in my previous post where all extras were listed were as an example if i was starting so low, as it goes i start higher and mine include fire escapes and sills included ,just toughened and more openers are charged for strangely enough same as what you do. Regarding integrity ian has offended me slightly by suggesting i possibly charge for service calls for faulty work this suggests i have idiots fitting which is far from it, iam not looking for tit for tat retaliation i just think for someone who knows nothing about me to suggest i am not running a decent set up is unjust. Regarding the shoe scenario lol its simple if u like the shoes but they are double the price when u get inside then its simple if u cant afford u only buy one but maybe if there running an offer you might get the other one for free…I also thought any marketing campaign was to get a foot in the door or maybe i have missed something in the last 20 years. When i
follow on- when i get a lead it is because that person has contacted me. Does any of your threes companies use foot-can, tele-sales, in-store etc . I think that sort of marketing is a mickey take because i beleive when a customer is ready to buy they will source there own companies and not needing hassle when shopping or at home. I was friendly in my earlier posts as i am now. As this is a forum for anyone am i the only one on here who can justify offer led ads or is everyone on here a 30-50% discount of nothing sort of company. lets keep it friendly guys its just my opinion no need for nastiness….we all get that off the occasional funny customer (sorry i forgot u dont get them they all loooooove u cos u are such decent caring blokes who dont want them to have money worries or anything because when they ve dealt with you they not have anything left to worry about ….
What a bunch of bloody girls most of you lot are! Just get on with it and bugger anybody else!
Lee – don’t be offended by anything I’ve said.
My original post was general and not intended to implicate any particular company. You have made an impassioned defence of price led advertising, and I’m sure the way you operate your business works in your instance.
My opinion is that in general it doesn’t work, though, and gives consumers a false impression of the market price for the products we sell. But there are different ways to fry eggs and your views are noted.
I’m sure that if we sat down and had a pint (and with Ian, Edward and Simon) then there’d be a lot of common ground.
Matthew
Phil – will do. Thanks for the advice.
hi re rcg reply , your comments were sensible and non-offensive it was the others. Re phils last comment probably the most sense spoken in 1 sentence by nature we are all including myself a bunch of upstarts in that if we have a view no one will alter that alas- we are salesman and we do the mind changing happy selling everyone (ive had enough of this debate now) and to be honest ive learnt zilch from all this lol…..
Hi Lee,
One of the reasons that I get angry about the type of advertising that you so staunchly defend, is precisely because it sets out to be misleading.
When viewed from outside of our industry this only reinforces the outdated stereotypical image of the spivvy double glazing salesman and company,out to make a fast buck, and bugger the consequences.
Many people,myself included, have traded steadily over many years thru thick and thin, trying to build up a business that offers honest straightforward advice and uncomplicated prices that are totally transparent. The day I try to deceive a customer by upselling an item like a window handle that my customer was not unreasonably expecting to be part of the window price,is the day I know my customers will lose trust in me. It will be time to quit.
The vast majority of customers in my estimation know dam well when they are being taken for a ride and can spot deception in an instant.To pretend otherwise is merely self-delusional. Thats one reason why I’ve never done Bogof’s or phoney discounts.
Lee. Your assumptions are not only wildly inaccurate but they are misguided. My company (family business) is 12 years established, manufactures and installs using an employed workforce. Company size is just over 40 people.
All leads are referral, recommendations or approaches from customers. There is no cold calling, leaflet drops or tacky campaigns. The most I have ever reduced a price by is 15%. Five to 10% is the norm. Why? We price realistically from the start. To give Mr Smith 35% off after his friend Mr Jones paid full whack is both insulting and unprofessional. Quotes are given at a market price. We fit doors from £550 to £1000 and conservatories have been sold at £6k to £25.
We don’t ring our “boss”who is on holiday to reduce the price. The price you are given is a fair, competitive price for a quality product and service.
There are no two hour calls with old dears. I feel you are tarring some of us with your own brush. Calls are informal, fact finding excercises where the customer decides how much time they want to spend talking to you. We don’t offer finance so prices are genuine, not bloated with APR.
You reckon this is a forum but you then threw your handbag on the ground when someone had a differing opinion.
As long as I’m following guys like you into jobs, I’ll do just fine.
However, I’d gladly go for a pint with you…………. I’d just keep an eye on my wallet.
It seems we all know our market places and develop our marketing strategies accordingly…I have personally always aimed at the high end…sourcing top end, cutting edge products to meet customers needs and aspirations, we employ talented tradesmen and an experienced project manager…our objective to meet the high expectations this market place demands…therefore I cannot relate to Lee’s selling arena
Quality is subjective and down to interpretation…so long as we all feel we our meeting our key objectives and satisfying our customers needs we all ought to be chatting away still on this blog this time next year…without having changed our trading names : )
hi ian, it seems you are at at it again with silly analogies like upselling a window handle (what planet are you on) do you not understand plain english . The point is i do a window for £225 a window with one opener and any extra wil be charged for accordingly and they either buy or go elsewhere. When i see an offer in b&q for a kitchen at lets say £1799 and i go in and order chrome fittings ,granite worktops and integrated appliances i as a customer would understand they may want £2500 as i have “upgraded”. No doubt u would be one of those pillocks arguing the toss about misleading ads . For gods sake man get a grip on reality some companies are cheap some are dear some in the middle at the end of the day the customer will decide. In response to “deception” for christs sake not everyone is a con man .I bet you, like any other salesman have customers who who didnt buy because they thought you were a bullshitter . By the way i bet you have never done 2 of the same jobs at the same price because you like any other salesman would go for maximum profit . I have met your type many times over the years you are full of self delusional bullshit reality is you beleive your own hype….(which by the way is not always correct) ta ra chuck
hi ian , not very nice when someone is being a bitch when they know nothing about you is it? Can we agree to disagree ? and sell some windows whichever way we decide is best for our company . Nice debate though……
Lee – We’re getting a bit personal now. Suggest we bring this debate to a close.
hi good idea bring it to a close bear in mind i was accused of having cowboys, charging for service calls, being a conman to oaps, amongst other things all i ever intended todo if anyone looked at my first post was to suggest how the prices can be incresed by a good rep and alternatively be ripped to bits by same rep if on opposite side.I appreciate as in any walk of life there is good and bad and i suppose it got personal whnen no-one gave my point of view any constructive critisism (just unfounded accusations). message to simon u neednt worry about your wallet as i have my own (maybe not as much as you though lol) .Whenever i have read someones post on here i have never accused anyone of anything even if i didnt agree as i try not to tarnish people without knowing the full facts. Anyway ian i got drawn in to a childish tit for tat which i am not proud of, as i said before lets agree to disagree. As to having a pint i would go to the bar myself or otherwise i might end up paying over the odds for a beer that on presentation looks a bit nicer but in reality is no different to the cheaper plain one at the other end of the bar!!!!!!!!!!
Well there’s a couple of bars near me we could go to.
One’s currently running a half price offer on all beers and wines, although you wouldn’t go there when it’s full price (£6 per pint).
The other one’s got John Smith’s and Carlsberg at £1 a pint, although the pork scratchings are a bit dear.
rcg-like it.. u ought to called cryptic conservatory guy .This is what i thought this site was about , informative and light hearted banter , trust me to pipe in when everyones in a bad mood.. Til next time cheers..By the way my local is £1.50 a pint and the pork scratchings are very reasonable too if u want em……no one round here tends to go in fancy wine bars they mostly stick to the spit n sawdust venue….
Remind me guys… Whose the largest double glazing company in the UK? Don’t they offer 50%+ promotions! Not done them any harm up selling.
Also, don’t car manufacturers promote basic car models for £6995 etc and then try and up sell u the sports model etc for £10,000. Is that not the same thing!
Don’t start!
s marketing—-thankyou very much at last some common sense—-
Wow
As a presepective customer – no wonder you guys have a peputation only matched by Estate Agents and now MP’s!!
C’mon David surely we rank over and above the banking fraternity?!?
Or if your worried about sales, Try this :0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_vPPDNyf5E