Great strides have been made to make PVC-u sash windows look very similar to traditional timber sash windows.
In many instances it’s very difficult to tell the difference, in my opinion.
So, I’ve added 10 pictures of sash windows in some of the UK’s most beautiful homes. I’m sure you’ll all agree the windows look great in these properties.
But, how many of the windows are PVC-u and how many are timber? Have a look and see what you think:
House 1
House 2
House 3
House 4
House 5
House 6
House 7
House 8
House 9
House 10
So, how many of these houses have PVC-u windows?
You can vote in the right hand column, or alternatively leave your thoughts below.
Tags: pictures of sash windows, PVC-U Sash windows, Sash Windows, timber sash windows, Timber Windows, upvc sash windows
There are 1 or 2 that are not obvious but I went for all 10 being PVC .
I would say two houses are timber & eight pvc
Thanks Ian
I would agree that most people would not notice the difference unless they got really close to the window and looked at the horns. A point of example is that 10 years ago our town was given world heritage status and all of the properties within a certain distance of the main road were given the opportunity to have a grant to change all their roofs back to welsh slate and change the windows back to sash.
But unsually the remit from the council was that the windows should ideally be pvcu as this was determined to be more thermally efficient ( and considerably cheaper cost to them !!) . Some of our customers prior to seeing the pvcu window installed paid for the upgrade to timber saying they thought the pvcu version would look to “plasticky” , but then when the windows were installed we did have grumbles from the timber customers stating that they were dissapointed that their timber windows didn’t actually look any better that the pvcu ones !
Fortunately this was pointed out prior to the order being taken but as usual the customer took what was said with a shovel full of salt.
Obviously there is a difference aesthetically but i don’t think many people would notice the difference and from this point of veiw alone its not worth the cost of the upgrade. We don’t mind installing pvcu or timber it really makes no difference as our margins are the same, its just as simple as you pay’s your money you makes your choice !
i would say there probably all pvcu by the way !!
At a guess I would say they are all upvc.
i think 5 are pvc some look listed buildings or in conservation settings so would have to have timber, thats how i worked it out. maybe wrong ha ha ha
I think houses 1 to 5 are timber and houses 1 to 10 are PVC-u, the reason is that original sash windows have a deep bottom rail and most PVC-u mock sash windows don’t.
You can of course get the authentic deep bottom rail in PVC-u from Master Frame with their Heritage range, Cracking product but bloody expensive though, I got a price from them recently on quite a big job and they were 40% dearer than Quickslide.
Pictures are too far away to know for sure (I know that’s the point), with PVC-u windows now available in white grain I agree that that sash PVC-u windows look much more authentic than casements.
I would love to sell a conservatory/orangery with white grain PVC-u sash windows, haven’t come across that customer willing to pay the price yet.
Anyone done one like that yet? I’d be interested to know how it turned out.
Andy
I would guess that they are all Upvc.
However, irrespective of the actual number, the common denominator is that all of the window examples look about right for each property. Therein lays the actual problem we all face, because a list of 10 hideous examples of upvc windows would have been much easier to compile. (See a street near you!)
I feel the real damage has been caused to our industry not by upvc per se as a material, but the inappropriate design of window sold.
I guess all of us at sometime or another have quoted to install tastefully designed windows that would replicate or enhance the look of a period property -whether it be a large detached or a small terraced house- only to pass by some weeks later, and being gutted not only at losing a job but seeing the good looks of the immediate vicinity destroyed by one householder’s(and company’s) bad taste.
Incidentally going back to the original 10 photos, the other thing that catches the eye apart from the windows, are the number of good looking entrance doors- at first glance most of them could well be composite
Visit out website for a clearer perspective on these … Re composite doors, image nine is indeed a blue composite door – the one you see being the first attempt, we have since replaced the split panel (along with many others) .. All supplied by a market leader … Hmmm … Wouldn’t sell another composite for all the tea in china…engineered timber the only soloution for a quality door…albeit £3k plus, but I would rather sell fewer doors, appreciate a good margin and in turn experience less service calls…
Andy we have half a dozen wwg conservatories and only sell the bygone sash, quite frankly I haven’t been impressed with any other systems. I’d be very happy to email some images and yep they went well.
Edward:
Good luck to you, if you sell an engineered timber door for £3k upwards.
However the vast amount of our customers just do not live in some parallel universe where cost is of little consequence when set against what I am sure is superb quality product.
I believe this is sometimes referred to as ’selling to snobs’
From my experience composite doors have been well received by the public, who are in the main happy to pay a premium over a upvc paneled door and still stay within a realistic budget.
We have never had problems with composite doors. Has anyone experienced major problems?
Ian you’ve made my post sound completely pompous and arrogant . . . it may read that way, though I assure you it was not of that intention. It is simply we have set our stall out (from the offset 14 years ago) to focus on the high end market, actually there is far less competition in that sector. The profile of customer we meet would not be inspired by normal PVCu windows . . . indeed our new showroom only displays high performance timber products (I strongly believe that had we taken the route of mixing PVCU, aluminium, S DG alongside the top end timber products we simply would not be perceived as a specialist nor would customers enjoy the buying experience so much .. that’s another story)
Other than Evolution and Masterframe, I cannot see that much difference between the many fabricators, thus the only USP is YOU (I appreciate people buy people but even the greatest salespeople need a hook). I enjoy having a product range entirely different from the many local companies . . . a range of products that genuinely complements customer’s properties. It is a good feeling.
Look at the hi-fi market, or perhaps televisions, many people are aghast at the prices of top end products (Bang & Olufsen, Quad, Arcam etc) however that market still exists and in fact is quite strong … more recognised brands (Sony/Samsung Panasonic etc) have never been in such price wars. All the brands do the same thing, it all depends on the customer’s perception of sound quality, aesthetic etc Believe you me customers buying doors for 3-5K along with higher price bracket window/conservatories sure want their pound of flesh. These customers expect a project manger, exceptional customer service with perfection in every aspect… these overheads need to be factored into the pricing structure to ensure company longevity.
We used to sell composite doors, probably around 3/4 a month, so not high numbers. Out of probably forty installed we have replaced 8 split door leafs – not great I am sure you would agree. The margins were good several years ago, but now with every Tom, Dick or Harry promoting them, added to the fact most housing association’s fit them on their homes (sort of looses the upmarket appeal) the market place is saturated. The price some companies quote devalues the product thus limiting your bottom line. What do you sell composite doors for?
Also, the ironmongery available has always let down the composite doors in my opinion – though I do appreciate this is changing with various suppliers offering upgrades to more interesting handles, letter plates etc.
Hope not to receive too much abuse from this post!
’selling to snobs’ – very much a generalisation. I feel the majority of our customers buy from our company (and indeed the many other companies in our sector of the market) simply appreciate quality and are in a fortunate position to be able to choose high end products. I wish there were more snobs to sell too!
Ian / Edward
For the record, I think you’re both right in a way.
Edward – as you know, I think you have a great model, although I like to think Conservatory Outlet does differentiate its offering compared to most.
Ian – yes, I agree, most of the marketplace don’t buy doors for £3K+. I am aware of a few composite door issues with a variety of suppliers, but not at the ratio Edward has experienced.
RCG
Very diplomatic RCG, does it frustrate you sometimes having to bite your lip?
Fortunately it’s not my blog and I can say what I want and yes, Edward your comments do sometimes sound pompous but I think it can be difficult to get across the point that you have set out your stall to deal with the top end demographic instead of getting involved in the mass market.
You can call it the snob market or even the punter market but if they are willing to pay the price then let them, they feel good about it and perceive they have paid top dollar and received top quality products and service and maybe they have.
Every market has top, middle and bottom, some people might say buying a Rolls Royce is crazy because it only has four wheels a steering wheel, seats, a roof etc etc. and gets you from A to B the same as other cars but people who can afford them and I dare say many who can’t buy them for prestige and status symbols.
If you don’t manufacture and don’t need to keep a factory going, then why not go for the top end with fewer orders and greater margins, wouldn’t we all ideally prefer that, the problem is most of us get sucked into the volume market and justify it to cover overheads.
On the composite issue, I have not really come across much of a problem and with the cost of them now why would you want to fit a PVC-u front door?
3K for an engineered timber door! has anyone ever priced a top quality timber door that is not likely to twist or warp and then put on good quality hardware? you wont get much change out of 3K.
Why not have 2 companies, one at the top end which carries a lot of your overheads and another to sweep with more standard products to customers who can’t or don’t want to pay top buck.
Just a thought!
Andy
Isn’t it interesting how we all end up comparing conservatories, windows and doors to … cars!
As I see it, Edward has one of those fancy car showrooms selling Rolls Royces, Bentleys and Porsches. He’s dabbled in the odd BMW and Audi but found the margins not as good, so now he’s happy to sell less top end cars, but at better margin. I’m sure that many people in our industry would like to have a car showroom like this – better dealing with football players than football fans.
Then you’ve got the other end of the market. A company in the West Midlands has recently come unstuck (again) after going for the volume market. The policy has been to sell absolutely loads of cheap cars. Interestingly, with this model you buy the car body, and then you have to pay a guy to fit the wheels, and another guy separately to pay for the wheels and so on. In theory, a good model, but consumers like a bit of TLC and because the margin is so low its unsustainable.
I’ve decided to go for the mid to high range of cars, and have set up a dealership model to suit. Most people dream about buying luxury cars, and occasionally a lucky few will invest. (I once bought a Porsche 996, and had to sell it, but that’s a different story). So, my policy is to sell BMWs as there’s decent margin and there’s a reasonable volume of customers. And, I’ve set up a dealership network along these lines.
Did you see the subtle self promotion here?
RCG
Housing Associations fitting Composite front doors?
Stone the crows they’ll be giving them Corby trouser presses next!
I have had another look at those pictures , and yes I am now sure that I was right and that all 10 are in fact PVC sliders
Looks like there’s a range of uPVC systems highlighted in those pictures – some with deep bottom rails (like Rehau), some without (like Eurocell).
More importantly though, the fact that it’s so difficult to tell speaks volumes about how good some of the VS systems are now. We make Rehau Heritage and Eurocell/Plastmo, and regularly get the “I thought they were wood” passer-by comments. Our experience is that very few punters can tell the difference from more than a few feet away.
Now if only someone would convince the planners and English Heritage
Very nice and convincing upvc sliding sash window designs!
If only the same care could be taken with a range of casement windows,then I’m sure it would be good news for householders,the industry,and our heritage. All of the current upvc casements (and many timber ones also) look completely out of place in a period property with their over-chunky detailing.