Renegade Conservatory Guy

14 responses so far ↓

• 1 john.com // Jul 29, 2008 at 11:30 pm

  What’s happened to paul.com? He’s usually got something to say about double glazing . I can only comment about being steamed up.

• 2 Renegade Conservatory Guy // Jul 30, 2008 at 7:22 am

  Hi John.com. Why don’t you just be yourself?

• 3 paul.com // Jul 30, 2008 at 5:05 pm

  Yes well I’m no expert and can only speak from my experience of sales training and pitching to customers.
  I was once very impressed by a window demonstration we had at an Everest sales meeting by an old rep, Alan somebody who retired while I was working there. Everest offer a unique lifetime guarantee on windows which I always thought was for as long as the customer lived in the house until they died but may have been for 25 years in the small print. The guarantee is transferrable to new house owners for a further 20 years for a small administration fee.
  Alan started his window demonstration by explaining how uPVC will bend and warp in hot weather if not reinforced with some kind of metal. Although I’m a bit dubious about the claims Everest make the pitch went that they always use rolled steel which is much stronger than any reinforcement used by other companies if the others use anything at all.
  The strength of the window frame contributes to how long the sealed unit will last inside it which is why Everest can guarantee for so long. The unit is not subjected to any forces of movement caused by flexing of the PVCu and remains secured and undisturbed.
  So the interesting thing I learned was that it wasn’t just a question of how well the unit itself is made that determines it’s longevity but the strength of the window frame it’s fitted into.
  When I worked for other companies I changed my pitch to emphasise that the units where the cheapest parts of the window to replace and the extra cost of having to pay for the kind of guarantee Everest gives is not justifiable. In any case the majority of people with double glazing now have found there units are lasting them 30 years plus with no problems.
  “Sealed double-glazed units are designed to last for 20 years, and will never save more money or energy than that used in their manufacture and installation.”
  If this is true it’s quite an amazing revelation. Even though I was working in the double glazing industry and it was to my advantage that the government introduced the laws about U values I always thought it was a damned cheek to start dictating what windows people can fit in there own houses. I think it’s an invasion of our civil liberties. Some people might like to live in a cold house and find double glazing too stuffy! Believe it or not I have been told this by some people.
  It’s strange to think that the environment could actually be better if people had single glazed windows or better still do what I believe the Swedish do and have a secondary window just for winter time. Would the manufacture of the secondary window, basically a big piece of glass , use more energy than it saves too?
  If it’s true that the money you save on double glazing could be used to heat your home to the same warmth I think the main saving grace of double glazing will be the way it can reduce condenstion. In extremely cold weather single glazed windows are going to be streaming with condensation if the heating is on high. The other thing is that once you’ve paid for your double glazed windows you don’t have to worry so much about the price of gas going up another 22% all the time! Even with a power cut or the gas cut off you’re significntly warmer.
  I don’t think the 50 million people or whatever that have double glazing can all be wrong though and that the government could have brought all these laws in for double glazing if they hadn’t done their sums . Or is it a big conspiracy between the window companies and ministers getting back handers? Joking aside I wouldn’t be at all suprised if their is a small element of that. I was a bit suspiscious when everyone at Everest was saying how good FENSA was going to be for them and how much small company competition it was going to destroy.

• 4 paul.com // Jul 30, 2008 at 5:12 pm

  I’m not too bad when I’m not steamed up am I?

• 5 Renegade Conservatory Guy // Jul 30, 2008 at 8:39 pm

  Re: ‘I always thought it was a damned cheek to start dictating what windows people can fit in there own houses’.

  Interesting point!

• 6 paul.com // Jul 30, 2008 at 8:41 pm

  I’ve only just read the article in the Telegraph now. Though there might be some truth in the explanation given for the breaking down and misting up of the units I don’t think it is one of the main reasons. As well as my explanation about the rigidity of the window frame there are different ways of manufacturing units or maybe I should say were.
  Alot of the very thin units that you used to see in wood windows simply had a thin tin foil seal which would get punctured very easily espescially with the way wood swells and changes shape with the weather. Hence the millions of broken down misted up units you see which have been used in many new build houses until very recently. Those builders have certainly done the window industry a great favour and there is still masses of business out there because of it. Add to that the fact that wood windows are also very draughty beacause they’re difficult to seal .
  Units in alumnium windows break down easily because of the way it conducts thermal changes so easily. It goes from hot to cold and vice versa so quickly it causes the unit to break down . I seem to remember it’s because of the hairline cracks this effect causes between glass and seal. I’m not entirely sure of the reason now to be honest but I can assure you a sealed unit is not likely to last as long in an aluminium window as a PVCu one.
  Nearly all new units nowadays are made with a thick rubber seal all round which is designed to last forever although there are obviously some differences in the quality and some will break down more easily than others.
  Don’t know why I’m writing this really except that maybe it’s irritating how these so called experts get well paid for giving advice and write with such authoritiveness you’d hardly dare to doubt them but in actual fact they know Jack shit. Well actually they do know quite alot but not as much as they pretend to and I couldn’t resist using that expression as it came into my head and was used so well by that American comedian . Look for a video on You tube, “The internet is a series of tubes”. And all the old It’ll be Alright on the night clips. I’m off to look for the naked secretary pranks in Candid Camera. Those were the days when double glazing really was sexy!

• 7 John Mills // Jul 30, 2008 at 9:09 pm

  The Telegraph guy is talking through his hat, a story to appease his readers. Double glazing mists up generally due to manufacturing faults and very rarely as a result of bad installation.

  The manufacturing faults unfortunately take between 3 to 5 years to show through, if still clear after that period they can be expected to go on for many years. The manufacturing fault can be as simple as the factory door being open on a cold day, causing the glass to be cooler on one side than the other. The units go together OK but a minuscule area has leakage, that leakage takes years to show as it takes a long time to soak the silica gel enough to stop it working.

  The modern design of PVC and Aluminium windows are such that no matter how clumsy the installation, if the IGU fits it will give long service.

  The U value as given for sealed units has it heritage stuck before the period of computers. It was never the U value for the sealed unit, but for the centre of the pane. The whole unit U value is so poor that it is embarrassing. Meaning of course that if the pane is less than a metre square its performance degrades equally. A 500x 2000 pane has less performance than a 1000 x 1000 pane. The figures have now been confused by the addition of Solar Gain. While the test of a one metre square centre pane measurement is still the U vale part, the whole of the pane is used to calculate the solar gain element. Two mismatched figures that give the impression that they are meant to miss lead. In a modern world there is no reason why the actual U value cannot be given for each window and IGU produced, this ability is built into some of the production control programs used by window fabricators in the UK.

  To understand this further is to understand the glass lobby group in Europe, it is very strong and very persuasive. It was this intense lobbying that forced governments to the 1.7 U value for IGU’s, bearing in mind again that this only means the center of a metre square. This same lobby group is now pushing the agenda that solar control glass should be fitted as standard to reduce the need for air conditioning. As with the Solar Gain it pays no attention to the fact not all windows are on a south facing elevation. With Solar Gain of course not only are all windows not on south facing elevations, the required daylight for them to work particularly here in the UK is less than 12 hours a day between October & March. Meaning that the main period of time that these figures should be applicable to the consumer is also the time when they are at their most meaningless.

  A more tangible test of material suitability, would be on a winters evening first place your hand on the frame of a PVC window, then on the glass just slightly away from the frame. It’s a subjective test but it also explains the nonsense of the testing as it stands. The IGU is said to have a U value of 1.7, PVC above 2.4. In the test that would mean the PVC should feel colder (20% colder) than the glass, has anyone found that to be true?

• 8 John Mills // Jul 30, 2008 at 9:16 pm

  Paul; old style aluminium windows had the problem that they were based on the theory that water shouldn’t get in, then when it did, the sealed unit sat in water.

  IGU suffer flexing from the simple action of heating up and cooler down during the day. In fact the glass goes from concave to convex over an average day. This is why the Edgetech guys can give such a long guarantee the spacer flexes with the glass and not away from the glass as solid spacers do.

• 9 John Mills // Jul 30, 2008 at 9:25 pm

  I must not type in small boxes. My brain always says it defferently to the way it’s typed.

  a cooler is for drinks cooling down is a daily action and so on

• 10 paul.com // Jul 30, 2008 at 10:49 pm

  Well it’s amazing to find out the real reason. It always intrigues me to find out how the truth is much more complex than you can ever imagine it to be and too hard for most people to understand. At least I was right about the Telegraph man. I thought my explanation made sense but you’ve made me realise what a load of bull it is.
  Your U value explanations are very hard to follow and not that interesting to me let alone customers. I think all people want to know is that double glazing works and is significantly better than being single glazed .
  That’s a great appraisal of the Edgtech product. I did at least manage to follow that bit of science and find it interesting.
  I still think my points about condensation and safeguarding against energy price inceases by having double glazing make sense and are going to be easier for most people to grasp. We haven’t all got degrees in Science and Technology you know .
  Your name is familiar and reminds me of a manager for a national window compnay I knew recently but I had no idea he could know so much about U values so I’m not sure it’s you.
  Maybe I could have another go at selling now I know all about U values and 1 sq. metre panes and leakages when the factory doors are open. Can you imagine me trying to explain that to my customers?
  Did you mean you would not be able to remember the name of your website. John I don’t mean to be rude and I’m very impressed by what you’ve told us but I’d like to know what your expertise is and how you came to be such an authority on these matters? How can we be sure we’re not just being taken in in the same way we could be fooled by the Telegraph expert?
  I always become obsessed with finding out the truth but the deeper you delve it’s like the less you know until you couldn’t care less.

• 11 John Mills // Jul 31, 2008 at 9:12 pm

  Paul. You should never believe anything any one tells you, the real answer is to see beyond what is being said. The only truth you can ever rely on is that you have discovered yourself.

  The BFRC plan in the UK was started by Dr Robin Kent until he passed it on to the GGF; his web site is at www.tangram.co.uk. The clarification on sealed units can usually be found by seeking out a company’s terms and conditions; Pilkington has the limitations written out very clearly, the big problem is finding them on their web site. Check the small print from the GGF on what WER’s really means it’s a lot different to the way the industry markets it.

  The U value is only confusing when applied to glass because that appears to be the intention. The U value for loft insulation is that for the whole loft, the U vale for a wall is the whole wall; even the u value for a window frame is for the whole frame. However, the u vale for a sealed unit is for the centre (only the centre) of the complete area covered and then only if it is a metre square, it is never for the whole unit. Whichever way you look at it is nonsense, which begs the question why?

  Only a nutter would try to explain any of what I have said to the consumer. The mythology around double glazed windows has become distorted over the years and is confused primarily by the glass manufacturers not wanting to stick to convention. The mortal fear from the glass manufacturers is that if the real figures were exposed, building developers would fit smaller windows and therefore use less glass. Understandable, but it means everything else has to be fudged. There is something nice and clean about being honest; unfortunately the guys at the front end are struggling when the supply chain seeks to mislead.

  Selling to the consumer is an entirely different subject and science than cannot be understood by the non- salesman. A salesman is not someone with the gift of the gab; a salesman is first and foremost someone that can listen. People buy from people they like; it’s as simple as that. People like people that take an interest in them as people. Often a good salesman will be told by a prospective customer that they are good conversationalists, when all they really did was listen.

  If as a salesman you get into the discussion about what the U value is on this product or that product they have already lost the sale. To get involved in that type of detail is to walk into a trap. What if the customer has read the truth on the Pilkington site?

  Some years back I was talking through the needs with a prospective customer, and at that time she told me about her experiences with another salesman. This other salesman had made a big play about how the sealed units in his windows used desiccant and not silica gel, as it was significantly better. One of the first things I learnt before measuring up or anything else was to discover that she was a scientist at the NPL (www.npl.co.uk). The NPL is the UK’s main testing house for double glazing. Not only did the other guy talk down to his prospective customer, he conveyed the impression of taking the piss.

  PVC bends or warps in hot weather if not steel reinforced. Gutters, downpipes, fascias soffits, car bumpers, the list is enormous. So the guy at Everest was talking his guys into looking stupid and not to sell windows.

• 12 paul.com // Aug 1, 2008 at 2:36 pm

  So I take it you are a salesman or involved in window sales somehow. I don’t think you can listen to a customer if you are not informed. I don’t think there’d be any harm in explaining everything in as much detail as you could if they really were interested. I’d guess it’d work to your advantage that you actually knew a bit about your business rather than be the ignorant brut that pretends to know everything and tries to bash the customer into submission by talking a non-stop load of drivel from the moment he steps foot in the house.
  I think you misunderstood about the Everest guy and it’s probably my fault for not being very good at explaining things. He did tell us that PVC bends and warps with changes in weather and that it needs to be reinforced. He incorporated the argument that this will protect a sealed unit which will mean it can be guaranteed longer. Maybe that was stretching the argument a tad too far having heard your explantion. His main argument was that it stopped windows bowing and buckling which means that the window remains draught proof because the opening sash fits perfectly back into place when closed. Also alot of cheap pvcu windows with no strength can’t be closed at all once the outer frames has become so badly distorted leaving you vulnerable to intruders.

• 13 paul.com // Aug 1, 2008 at 2:42 pm

  By the way RCG there’s a flaw in the moderation sytem .If you double post the first post moves into recent comments automatically which means it’s escaped moderation doesn’t it? I don’t mind if you delete this. You can trust me not to say anything too bad from now on.

• 14 Renegade Conservatory Guy // Aug 1, 2008 at 3:11 pm

  Hi Paul
  I think it may just show on your computer. I’ve never noticed the problem before.
  RCG

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