Guest post by Hazel
I wasn’t sure whether to post this as it gives away many of our industry’s best secrets. But what the heck! Our industry has a bad reputation and only by companies and their employees gradually stamping out these practices will we have customers welcoming our sales staff into their homes without the current mistrust:
Don’t arrange for a quote until you have read this….
It could save you from being ripped off, regretting your decision, or wasting hours with a high pressure salesperson. Windows, doors, conservatories, etc, are all a major investment.
A few minutes studying this will give you the inside information you need to see through many double glazing tricks, old and new. You are unlikely to find all this information anywhere else, simply because the other window companies don’t want you to know!
By exposing these secrets, we are putting YOU, the customer, in control.
Please read this carefully as it will save you time and money.
Almost every window company you can think of pays their sales people no basic salary at all. They earn commission only if they sell to you. (The very few exceptions to this are mostly small, local companies).
However many of the smaller companies that appear to be caring, local firms now employ reps who have worked for the larger national ones & pay them in the same way. Once you have read the sales tactics below you will easily be able to spot these.)
What does this mean to you, the customer?
1. The more they can charge you for your windows, the more money they will earn, as they are on a percentage.
2. If you don’t buy from them they earn nothing; in fact it will have cost them petrol money to visit you.
3. They get more commission if you use their finance scheme.
Now you can see why so many sales reps start at a very high price & can then magically discount it, sometimes by thousands of pounds in a very short time.
They don’t really expect you to say yes to their first ridiculous price, but if you do they will happily take your money & pocket lots of extra commission.
If you don’t, they can then use their “discounts” to persuade you to “do it now”, thereby making sure you don’t shop around & they still get their sale. Most reps are under great pressure to get your business on their first visit. Sales Managers constantly tell them that EVERYONE will “buy on the night” if they have a good enough reason to.
Some of the common high-pressure sales tactics are as follows:
The Call to the Manager:
This is to convince you that they have gone to great trouble to get you a “special deal” if you sign up today.
It is just an act – the rep already knows exactly what price he can go down to. He will usually express great surprise that the manager can do it at such a good price for you!
The Show Home Promotion:
A huge discount for having a board outside your house, and in the case of some companies, the chance to feature in their magazine & get your windows for free if you win their draw.
Of course it is a very limited offer & you have to sign up immediately to get it. And your house is always in exactly the location they are looking for.
Just an inflated price, with a false discount. Have you ever met anyone who did get their windows for free? This has been running for years.
Most local companies do ask if they can place a board outside for a short time when they are installing. It shows they are proud of the job they have done & helps them get more business. But there is no way they can give you a huge discount for this, or replace your windows at a loss to themselves in return for the advertising.
“I’m not a sales rep, I’m the area manager (or from the trade department, or the owner’s son)”
Some companies train every sales rep to say this!
The rep who should have visited you is always off sick, been in an accident, his wife is having a baby etc. So they have come instead so they don’t let you down, even though it’s not their job.
If you buy off them tonight you will save money as you won’t be paying the rep’s commission. Now you think they must be such a nice person & you are getting a bargain.
Of course all they are doing is putting pressure on you to sign up, and it is almost certain that anyone who uses this line IS on commission & your windows are no cheaper.
Huge discounts, usually from 35% to 50% off
To qualify for these you usually have to sign up there & then. The price has been inflated & they pretend to give you this special offer.
As with the “call to the manager” they will want a commitment that you WILL buy tonight IF they can give you a special “discount”.
Again, you will have been pressurised & your windows may still cost more than they should have done.
But you believe you have got thousands of pounds off & you could never have afforded them otherwise.
You haven’t “beaten them down”, you have just played the game they have been trained to get you to play!
“Have the front done & get the back done free” or “Buy one, get one free”
All they do is charge you more for some windows & pretend others are free.
Try saying you’ve already had the back done & only want the front at their best price. Then change your mind & decide you do want the back after all – sure enough you will find the back is not “free” any more!
“A large commercial contract has just cancelled”.
Also commonly used as a reason to pester you later if you didn’t sign up on the night. Some companies send a letter claiming this has happened to every customer who didn’t buy from them.
Again just a ploy to make you believe you are getting a great deal! Magically the gap in their order book is always exactly when you wanted your windows fitted!
A similar ploy is a call from the “trade department” offering you the windows cheaper.
I need a deposit to “hold the price”
Your windows will NOT cost any more tomorrow or even next week. They just want you to part with some money & give them a firm order so you don’t look elsewhere for a better deal.
Remember that by law you have seven days to cancel any contract you sign in your home.
Window Scrappage Schemes or “We pay you for your old windows”.
There is NO national government scrappage scheme for windows.
Cleverly invented by some large national companies to mimic the wording (scrappage) & amount (£2,000) of the genuine car scrappage scheme.
Some have been forced to amend their misleading advertising slightly due to the number of complaints, but it is currently still the most convincing double glazing scam ever.
Other companies admit the government isn’t yet doing this, but because they “care about the environment”, they will give you money back to scrap your old windows anyway.
Extensively advertised on TV & radio, and sounds believable.
Save money AND save the planet! We all want to do both of those!
Your windows will be NO cheaper if you use a company with a “scrappage scheme”.
All they do is pretend the windows cost more, then pretend to give you money off for your old ones!
It costs every company money to dispose of your old windows, they are NOT “paying you” for them. They really don’t want them!
A final quote that is so cheap you wonder how they can do it!
Often they probably can’t! If all else fails, the rep may offer you a price so cheap you can’t refuse it.
When your job is surveyed later you may get a call saying they can’t do it for that price, so you need to pay more or they will cancel it.
Many reps get their commission when you have paid a deposit, but cancellations are not deducted from them until the next month. So they can live on some borrowed money for a while, and they hope that you will be too embarassed to go back to any of the other companies who quoted & told you it couldn’t be done so cheaply.
Also they have made a “sale” & got their manager off their back for a while.
Sometimes if the job is heavily discounted, the company will fit your order, but you may get poorer quality windows or no reinforcing to get their costs down.
Staying for hours
We’ve all heard the horror stories of the sales rep who arrived at 9pm and didn’t leave until 1am!
Hopefully by this time you will be so tired or brainwashed that you will sign up just to get rid of them. You wouldn’t want to go through that experience again as you think all window companies will do the same.
Or maybe you will think that as the poor rep gave up so much of his time, you really should use him.
Remember many commission-only reps will only work one appointment per day. So even though he was at your house for 3 or 4 hours, that is all he worked that day!
Often appointments are purposely made for late evening so they can wear you down in this way.
Finance
Designed to make you think your windows are more affordable, by giving you a monthly payment. Look carefully at the total you will be paying.
If the rate seems cheap or is “interest free”, the finance company will be charging the window company interest, and this will have already been added to the cost of your windows.
Mostly the rate is very high, and that means the rep will be getting commission on the finance deal as well as the windows.
There are often high penalties for early repayment once you have realised, too late, just how much it will cost you.
A lot of sales training is given to make these finance deals sound much more attractive than they really are.
Try your bank first. Use these schemes as a last resort.
Now you are ready to start getting your quotes!
Hopefully, armed with this inside information, you will be able to avoid all these sales tricks, not waste hours with dodgy sales reps, and make a wise and informed decision in your own time.
And you KNOW to show the door to ANYONE who starts to use these tactics, or suddenly offers you thousands of pounds off for any reason!
There is no panic to “buy now”, they will still be selling the same windows at the same price tomorrow, whatever they say…
Use an honest company, that gives you a fair price straight away, doesn’t outstay their welcome or try to mislead you, and is happy to provide you with a written quotation to consider in your own time.
Help us say NO to dodgy double glazing sales tactics, and finally make buying windows a straightforward & enjoyable experience.
Tags: commission only salespeople, double glazing discounts, double glazing prices, double glazing sales tactics, double glazing salespeople, high pressure double glazing sales tactics, high pressure salespeople, show home promotions, tujon windows
Hi Hazel
I live in the NE of Scotland, and I have had a bad experience – still am – with a local conservatory installer. They came across as very plausible, and the gripe I have is not only with the sales part, but also the overall workmanship and customer care. I would like to expose them, as they give your industry a bad name. There doesn’t appear to be any regulatory authority which can impose standards in this area – everything seems to be done ‘as the company sees fit’. I myself am an engineer, and not overly familair with the building industry, but I know a poor tradesman when I see one, and this company have plenty of those. Their management team are also suspect – here for the beer, I suspect! I would be glad to expand on this, as it makes for interesting reading!
Hi Axlechaos
Thanks for contacting this site. I can sympathise entirely with your experience, but this site is not really for naming and shaming individual companies as such.
RCG
Shouldn’t this post have been put up twenty years ago?!? Are there really guys out there using these outdated sales techniques? Some may feel this advice insults the intelligence of the general public?
In terms of commission based salespeople, I fail to understand how this would have a negative impact to a consumer. Presumably employed salespeople (or may be estimators) would be under similar pressure to win an order simply to hit targets to retain their job?
As a commission only salesman before I started my present business (89-96) I built up a large base of very happy customers – investing my time and money in ensuring their expectations were fully met. It was fundamental I looked after each customer being reliant as I was on them referring me/the company to their contacts. Would an employed salesperson show the same level of interest…may be?
The principle objective for most customers, I feel, is to find a company they feel comfortable with, whom offer a product that meets their needs both in terms of function and form. Not sure these customers could care less how the representative they meet (or indeed company owner) has their salary structured. The fact is, most people buy people and it makes little difference whether one is employed or self employed…if your face doesn’t fit you won’t win the order.
Happy estimating : )
I don’t think I would call those ‘Insider Secrets’. In my experience with the people and customers I have spoken to over the years, this is all common knowledge and nothing new.
It’s a great shame that this has been written directly and only in relation to the double glazing industry as unfortunately, these sort of practices have been widely used in all direct sales sectors ever since direct sales were invented.
I see this article as a promotional one at the expense of our industry as a whole.
Hazel
So, when you go to the super market you are never tempted to ‘buy one get one free’ or ‘butter £1.50 each or 2 for £2′?. No, when you get to the check-out you say ‘No I don’t want your bargin, I’ll pay for them separate plese!
Are your sales people just on a basic wage? It must be a fantastic place to work.
I was in the industry for 30 years ,(from manufacture to sales & beyond) I’ve had good times & very lean times but I’ve also used every ‘close’ in the book & at one particular company I worked I held the record of 10 1/2 hours in 1 house. Something I’m not proud of but, when It’s comming up to Christmas & you have a family to feed you will do your best to sell.
I see from your web site that you put prices to your consevatories, how do you create a desire & want for your products?
I’m sorry if this offends you in any way but, get real love.
Meanwhile, back in the real world . . . .
Sales people have to sell, if employed and they do not push a little and by this, I mean just asked for the order, they will not sell and then they will out of work. So it makes no difference how they are paid, no company will pass on leads to just an order collector.
Sales methods should be gentle, a bit of coaxing, you can push nine out of ten would be customers out of a deal if you are to heavy handed, so take it easy but make no mistake the customer does know you want their order.
Talking about sales.I enquired about a sales job with everest.The guy i spoke to on the phone asked me what i did now,i told him i was a self employed builder struggling for work!Oh good he said,once you know how we work you will kick yourself that you didnt get more work?I am intrigued by his comments ,can anybody shed any light on this.Oh yes and earnings of £3000 a week mentioned!Seemed too good to be true so i decided it was and cancelled the meet.Did i make the right decision?cheers darren.
I agree, in these times you need to be abit more careful with clients, but, if there is a sniff of a deal & you don’t push it that extra inch to get it, then you can’t call yourself a salesman!. Pitch n miss won’t pay the bills or please yoursales manager!
Darren – that’s funny!!
An observation, some people are confusing the call to action and the story that goes with it (the actual marketing of a product) with the practice of closing and order – the sale.
They are similar in that they are heading in the same direction, but they are not the same.
What do people mean by large ‘discounts’ and are they really a con? The Salesman generally has a price list that includes for the fitting of a window. Now we all know that sending out a fitting crew to fit just one window costs relatively speaking more than sending out the same team to fit six windows. The logic therefore is the person buying six windows is going to get a better deal than someone just after one.
The question is here, do you just give the customer a discount without mentioning it or do you have a story to make the customer feel good about their purchase?
There is a presumption that the ‘Car Scrappage’ scheme was funded by some imaginary body with buckets full of free money. Not quite true, it was funded by the dealers and the manufacturers and a sleight of hand on the VAT. The final analysis has shown the scheme to have caused the government to receive more in tax than they would have without the scheme.
If there was to be an official ‘Window Scappage’ scheme it would therefore lead us to believe it will be funded in the same manor – manufacturers and installers digging into their own pockets. So a company already seeing a marketing advantage, capitalising on the jargon of the day and building a story around the reason for their discount, is somehow seen as using sharp practise? How? Or is the suggestion that a good salesman gives away their volume discount but doesn’t tell the customer what and why they have done it.
What should not be forgotten in this is the customer. Whatever they may say for their reason for not buying, price and so on, the truth is that they only buy from people they like.
hi, i think most people nowadays are wise to ALL sales ploys , but people will beleive what they want to beleive even if deep down they know somethings slightly fishy , ultimately they will buy if it suits them at the time and they like the salesman and the deal is fair.(they expect a little bit of bull or patter) and before anyone starts i am not on about conning people im talking about giving people a reason to buy…..
When I used to go out selling I was very low pressure.
Customers used to say to me ‘Yes Matthew we’d like to go ahead’ and I’d say ‘Well, think about it overnight there’s no rush’.
I had an awful conversion rate mind you.
I have to agree with David , these are not insider secrets and are well known tricks used by a number of different product sellers , However , the latest scam I have heard of is an absolute corker , and I bet one or two of you may even have suckered by it.
I believe it may already have netted it’s promoter nearly £1M already and they are trying to roll it out everywhere.
OK ,OK I guess you know where I am coming from but it is quite clever to come up with a scheme that not only can promote a window as a nett house heater , but also persuade the government to include it in the building regs , I know the guys and girls in this industry can sell , but I have to take my hat off to this one , a double glazing scam that gets written into legislation. Classic !!
Matthew — the correct answer is ‘Thank you for trusting me with your business, I really appreciate it’
Another: Load of tosh. . .
Every punter, myself included want’s a deal. Whether they’re buying. I have never once sold a deal without a drop close, never ever.
Alexchao5: You obviously went for the cheapest quote, remember what your granny used to say, “you get what you pay for”!!
Kevin, are you on about the one where a top grade window produces 6 kw of heat for every metre square of window?
Quite good isn’t it. With the average home having 8.5 square meters of windows, so therefore those windows are producing 51 Kw of heat for every hour over a full year. Not bad when in the same house the boiler when it is turned on it only produces 28kw.
As you know Kevin it is taboo to talk about it in case someone gets to understand and sues the supplier company.
Spot on Ron!
There’s nothing more satisfying that closing a deal, getting back in your car & thinking to yourself that the punter’s got a deal, you’ve got what you wanted, so everybody is happy. Next!
Ian
Yes, you are spot on, unfortunately I believe there are not too many that have seen through this , however , I do count you as an enlightened one , and in fairness to Matthew , I do believe that his heart is in the right place even if his head hasn’t quite caught up yet
I do read your rantings on the issue and am encouraged that one day the truth will out.
Kevin – you’re right. Not quite caught up yet, but listening intently to all views on the subject
Time for a new subject Me thinks :0)
New subject, I’ve only caught up with this one, juicy, got lots of reaction but what a load of self-righteous, self promoting rubbish!
Who are Tujon to set themselves up as standard bearers for the public, many of the previous comments from some of this industries most ethical and intelligent people are absolutely correct, the Government and some of its appointed representatives are (in my humble opinion) scamming the public in a bigger and far more devious way than the averagre double glazing salesman trying to earn a living.
If you (Toujon) know all these tactics and you have enough about you, why would you want to highlight them? Surely if you with your employed order takers go up against these nasty double glazing people you will get the business every time by explaining how nice and ethical you guys are and what a fair and honest deal you are giving the customer compared to the horrible commission only sales person who, in absolutely every case is conning the public, apart from a lesson in sales, I think you need a lesson in economics.
All that being said there are obviously companies out there in every industry with employed and self employed sales people employing tactics which are deplorable and unnecessary, if a sales person is good enough and well trained sales can be closed whether on the night or otherwise by convincing the customer they are getting the right product at the right price, installed professionally and they will be looked after throughout the guarantee and beyond.
Employed or self employed, ultimately we are all paid what we are worth, if an employed sales person is not bringing in enough business at the right margins then they won’t be employed very long, equally if a self employed sales person is wasting precious company leads then it is adios, adieu, farewell.
Cheers
Andy
Nicely put Andy, that should just about bring this one to a close.
To answer the many comments briefly:
The article is taken directly from our website; therefore it was specific to double glazing as that is what we do! Of course it applies to many other direct selling industries.
It was obviously designed to inform the customer, not the salesperson.
The idea is not to keep this information to ourselves, but to let the customer know what to expect before they get other quotes.
Yes, it is a fantastic place to work! To quote the owners, “We aim to treat our customers as we would like to be treated ourselves”. They also treat their staff well & the company prospers.
I have worked for 6 years on commission only, 5 years on part basic, part commission, and am now on a fixed basic.
Funnily enough my conversion rate is now much better. My previous best on “commission only” was 7 out of 7. A couple of weeks ago I achieved 14 out of 14. (I would welcome a lesson in economics from anyone who regularly does better than that, though! I always want to improve).
Yes, this was just by being honest & different to most of the other reps who had quoted, so it really does work.
I just refuse to tell lies, and even when I was on commission only I was accused by a previous company of “breaking every rule of direct selling” & being “too honest for double glazing!” Good – that got me my current job.
I am on a fixed basic because I had proved myself & had a good reputation. (If I didn’t sell of course I would lose my job). I didn’t ask for this or expect it – I was offered it.
Maybe as I am now under less pressure, I don’t pressurise the customers & they sense that?
20 years out of date? Definitely not! I wish it was, then our industry would have the better reputation that we are trying to achieve!
Every day I meet customers who have had quotes from companies still using all these old tricks & false discounts. Just left one two hours ago actually – he’d already shown two reps the door when they began giving big “on the night” discounts when he had specifically asked for the true price first time & said he would not be signing that day. While more customers are now wiser as they have experienced the hard-sell in the past, there are still many that fall for the things I wrote about.
To a person in the industry, of course these “secrets” are not “new”. I didn’t say they were new, but they are certainly inside secrets kept from the consumer. To the average customer who has never bought windows before, they are very informative. That is who the article is aimed at.
By advertising a price for our conservatories, we ensure that customers know in advance the realistic cost, do not waste our time & do not fall for huge “on the night” discounts if they are getting other quotes. We don’t really have to work too hard to “create desire” for our products. The quality, the expert advice we give, the transparent pricing & the number of recommendations we get do that for us! And most people already know whether they “want” a conservatory/new windows or not! Many window companies already use “price quoters” online, similar principle.
If a supermarket runs a promotion you can clearly see what one item costs & what the discount is for two. It sounds like some reps have done their job for so long that they actually believe their companies’ inflated prices & false discounts. We all know there is a price you can sell your product for.
This article was posted to help customers & it was expected that sales people who use the tactics would not like it. You will note that Matthew, who runs this excellent site, also realised that when he added it, but chose to do so anyway after some consideration.
It was bound to be controversial as it exposed so much to the consumers.
I am not offended by any comments as I welcome discussion & realise I am breaking the mould somewhat in the way I treat my customers in this industry.
There really are other, better ways to sell than the traditional double glazing methods that so many have been trained in.
“If the cap fits, wear it”, as one of my customers said when they read my article.
But I do wonder whether I would have been patronisingly addressed as “love” if I had been male!
Hi Hazel
I’d like to thank you for sending the initial post to me, and then responding to the various comments with such dignity.
As you know, I was a bit unsure about whether to add your guide to consumers on this website, as I was unsure what readers would think. And, I recognised a couple of your points were a bit too close for comfort (ahem).
I have been surprised at the degree of hostility much of which has been unfounded but this is a website where I encourage debate, whether I agree with what people are saying or not.
Ironically, I feel you share very similar values and methods of selling to some of those who have been so negative to the original post.
Many thanks
Matthew
7/7, 14/14, I’ll give you a job love
With maybe slightly less dignity, I shall respond to David Binghams’s offer of a job by saying that fortunately I see no need for a change of employer in the near future, darling!
It did make me laugh though!! Thanks…
Hazel (ms. miss, mrs. love!
The term ‘love’ is not patronising of women but is just a nothern term for any female! (or around Bradford towards males!) It doesn’t mean what you think! If you don’t like it then,I (as a very proud northener) don’t give a flying ****. I am who I am and don’t give a toss about being PC. If a punter likes you & what your offering, they will buy.
You missed out on your Insider secrets such ‘close as the ‘Harrods or half nelson & the guessing game, so your not that clever are you? I’ll tell you them if you ask me.
As I said before your firm must be fantastic to work for.
For the lat time get real love ,ms. miss, darlin, ducks, sweetie, Shouldn’t you be in the kitchen anyway? :0)
Hi Hazel & RCG
I think the reason that some of the comments on Hazels post are negative is it is condescending.
It seems that Hazel, to use her words thinks she “has broken the mould”, the truth is that most of the people responding to her post are professionals, they do the job the way they see fit and I would guess in an ethical manner, it appears Hazel thinks she has moved with the times and left the rest of the industry behind.
I don’t have an issue with you posting her comments as I don’t employ the tactics highlighted, I just can’t think of a good reason why Hazel would want to warn the public about these tactics unless it was to advantage herself and perhaps even point her customers to your blog as a method of promoting her apparently efficient and ethical way of doing business compared to the rest of the industry.
Again I don’t have a problem with people expressing their views or if for purely
au-truistic reason,s informing the public about the bid bad double glazing companies, it might just be a coincidence that one of Hazels customers just happened to find this blog as hazel informs us when she say “as one of my customers said when they read my article”, I doubt it though, and I don’t believe this blog should be used for self promotion.
Regarding Hazels conversion rates then if it is the Toujon that I know and I would doubt that there is another, then at the prices they sell at….I won’t go there, suffice to say we have all had runs when we can’t do anything wrong but we are all long enough in the tooth to know that 100%, 90% or even 85% conversion rates are impossible to sustain for reasons that I am sure I don’t need to explain.
It is not negativity or hostility towards Hazels comments in my case, just a healthy dose of cynicism.
Cheers – Andy
Hazel:
”Funnily enough my conversion rate is now much better. My previous best on “commission only” was 7 out of 7. A couple of weeks ago I achieved 14 out of 14. (I would welcome a lesson in economics from anyone who regularly does better than that, though! I always want to improve).”
Hazel, here is your lesson in economics…
7/7 14/14 both equate to a 100% conversion rate (to be commended it must be said), so in fact employed/self employed no difference. Obviously you would not be able to improve on the conversion ratio as you wish…you would of course be able to improve your bottom line…try increasing your prices by 10% and study the results (I assume you are in business to make a profit?).
Having browsed Tujons website, I would not expect to pay a very high price for their products on offer (all looks like run of the mill PVCu) … all the same, it would be interesting to study their accounts at the end of the year … at circa £8K for a glass roof conservatory, including a base/walls/electrics (as noted on their site), I would think their margins are very, very tight … (bearing in mind a salary for Hazel, lets say £45K, needs to be factored in to the equation) … is it a sustainable business model? (Hopefully for Hazel it is) …
All this ‘blarney’ about how wonderful we are just seems very odd or indeed how dreadful others are. May be I meet a different demographic from other subscribers to this blog, as I never have an issue in trying to gain credibility and I genuinely do not think the industry has anywhere near the reputation suggested by others.
ATB
EB (conversion rate 1:2.7 …. damn loser!!!)
I agree with pretty well all of Edward Burgess’s comments above, and can add a ‘trade secret’ (sic) of my own:
‘Companies with the cheapest prices seldom deliver after sales service anywhere near their claimed guarantee period’
I can’t understand for the life of me why Hazel didn’t impart this sage advice as well………… perhaps it slipped her mind while going for the 15th straight deal!
To everyone else, I appologise for spouting figures, zzzzzzzzzz
Hazel:
Back in 1998, when working for Anglian selling conservatories, I sold 11 consecutive deals on the bounce.
In January this year I sold 10 kitchens on the bounce for Moben.
In fact, many many times in my career have I sold double figures consecutivly.
So there, it’s what reps do!!
Why your posts have got to me is that you, and people like you, devalue our industry (direct selling) and also the proffessionalism of the people in it. In fact I’d go as far as to say that you make a negative judgement on the customers who buy having negociated themselves a deal who are in fact the vast majority of the buying British public.
I love the free market and the fact that every company/rep sells differently. There is no right or wrong way as long as the deals come in at decent margin.
Lastly, what I will say. If your 14 out of 14 selling from the marketing you descride, you are simply order taking, and probably because you are the cheapest.
3 cheers for you Hazel and the mighty Tujon Windows, hip hip!!
Think it’s time to bring comments on this post to an end.
Agreed and congratulations Hazel for challenging a few male egos and creating a bit of a stir.
Cheers – Andy