The DGCOS publicity machine has recently picked up on a thread on this website and created a press release which has been published on various websites, including the Fenestration News – follow the link.
The press release states:
Dear Ian
Commenting recently (28th June) on the Renegade Conservatory Guy blog about the recent Which? report, a director of the GGF and FENSA alleged that “GGF members have their own ‘Ombudsman’”.
This distortion is more than just a bit of spin, and it illustrates why the industry so badly needs the Ombudsman Scheme. I am sure the GGF is well enough advised to know the difference, but his attempt to confuse an in-depth, compulsory, free of charge, legally binding Ombudsman (with judicial powers) with an opt-in/opt-out arbitrator with no powers of enforcement is an example of the sort of half truth that has beggared double glazing for so long.
That sort of industry self-deception has been regularly exposed by Which? for decades, along with other tricks of the trade. It’s why the industry is used by The Daily Mail, and others, as a benchmark for bad practice and dishonesty.
The GGF does not have an Ombudsman, with or without quotation marks. Let us be clear in future, please – and honest.
Yours sincerely
Tony Pickup
Founder of the Double Glazing & Conservatory Ombudsman Scheme (DGCOS)
I must admit, when I read this I did feel that Tony had blown out of all proportion the context of Alan’s comment and used it for his own benefit. These are strong words indeed.
Anyway, Alan Burgess has responded as follows:
FAO Tony Pickup
Firstly I note your comments on other sites suggesting a director of the GGF and Fensa has made comments, and has spun the term “ombudsman”.
This is untrue.
Yes I am a director of those (and other) bodies, however please note they were either “personal observations” or were written “for and on behalf of Masterframe Windows Ltd”.
They were not those of any other body. No other context should be considered.
You seem very concerned that I have spun a term, so I thought it best to obtain some definitions of the term, because that’s what members of the public will use.
Heres what I found…..
Wikipedia defines an ombudsman as:
“a person who acts as a trusted intermediary between an organization and some internal or external constituency while representing the broad scope of constituent interests. ‘Ombudsman’, which is an indigenous Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish term, is etymologically rooted in the Old Norse word umbuðsmann, which essentially means ‘representative’.
Usually appointed by the organization, but sometimes elected by the constituency, the ombudsman may, for example, investigate constituent complaints relating to the organization and attempt to resolve them, usually through recommendations (binding or not) or mediation.
Ombudsmen sometimes identify organizational roadblocks running counter to constituent interests.”
Another dictionary site says,
An official appointed by a government or other organization to investigate complaints against people in authority. This position is designed to give those with less power — the “little people” — a voice in the operation of large organizations.
om•buds•man
1.a government official who hears and investigates complaints by private citizens against other officials or government agencies.
2a a person who investigates and attempts to resolve complaints and problems, as between employees and an employer or between students and a university.Word History :
In Swedish an ombudsman was a deputy who looked after the interests and legal affairs of a group such as a trade union or business.In 1809 the office of riksdagens justice ombudsman was created to act as an agent of justice, that is, to see after the interests of justice in affairs between the government and its citizens.
This office of ombudsman and the word ombudsman have been adopted elsewhere, as in individual states in the United States.
The term has also been expanded in sense to include people who perform the same function for business corporations or newspapers.
I then looked for arbitrator, that’s a person who…….
1.A person chosen to settle the issue between parties engaged in a dispute.
2.One having the ability or power to make authoritative decisions; an arbiter.Sound similar, no?
Tony, please ask yourself these questions;
Is the GGF “a trusted intermediary between an organization and some internal or external constituency?”
Does the GGF, “investigate constituent complaints relating to the organization and attempt to resolve them?”
Does the GGF, “ act as an agent of justice?”
Does the GGF, attempt to resolve issues, “usually through recommendations (binding or not) or mediation?
Then it’s reasonable for people to use the term “ombudsman” or “arbitrator” in similar ways.
Tony, I did not try to spin anything, just pointing out the similarities of theses terms. No doubt you will have a far more precise, defined term, but laypeople aren’t interested, what they want is someone who resolves their problems when things go wrong.
Your scheme works for your members, it is not for the common good of every double glazing consumer in the UK, only those using your membership. Likewise the GGF is only interested in dealing with complaints involving its members.
Both offer different methods, both perform a similar role, lets get on with getting EVERY company to sign up organisations that promote good practice, instead of arguing that one is technically different to the other.
Alan Burgess
For and on behalf of Masterframe Windows Ltd
In two weeks time I have a representative of the DGCOS coming to talk to West Yorkshire Windows and Conservatory Outlet about the benefits of joining the scheme.
Their latest press release has not done their cause any favours in my eyes. Personally, I feel this industry has many genuine and good people which has cleaned up its act over recent years. Am I guilty of self deception?
Is our industry really a benchmark for bad practice and dishonesty?
Let me be ‘clear’ and ‘honest’. As far as I’m concerned, the DGCOS is a completely unnecessary organisation created to take advantage of outdated misconceptions of a previous era. There’s still room for improvement clearly, but a profit making ‘ombudsman’ scheme is not the answer.
Matthew Glover
For and on behalf of Conservatory Outlet Ltd
Tags: Alan Burgess, dgcos, double glazing and conservatory ombudsman, GGF, Masterframe Windows
PS. Tony – I forgot to mention. Are you sure quoting the Daily Mail is a good idea?
I completely agree with Matthew Glovers, comments. The DGCOS is a completely pointless organisation that from my own personal experience is run by [moderated] people, we already have enough of them in this industry.
Mathew, I back you on this, How many organizations do we need to police our industry, this is just another club to pay into and get a sticker, yes, they will ask for customer feed back and play advocate but if I pay them then they will judge for me.
We do not need any more leeches scrounging off us.
ps, Mathew,
Us down south read the Mail, right wing you know!
Mike – I had you down as quite straight up (for a Southerner). Dodgy taste in newspapers…
Until I can think of another industry that is so entrenching itself in a pack of lies , promoted by it’s main trade federation , purely to maintain a Market for it’s major members outdated products, with no regard for consumer fairness , then yes , I am afraid I would agree. A benchmark it is, and unfortunately this is not an issue that DGCOS will resolve.
Although, I guess the food and cosmetics industries come close with some of their claims, but I think there has just been some legislation to prevent the excessive claims, whereas our industry has just had legislation to promote the lies , so benchmark it is then
Yep Matthew, I think “guilty of self deception”.
Ask the 22,000 people – who complained to trading standards last year about this industry, the customers who fall prey to the promises of unscrupulous installers, the customers of the ‘big 4′ named in last week’s which report on misselling and the customers of space4living- if they think their views are ‘outdated misconceptions of a previous era’. I think you may get a different answer.
These are all things happening right now.
The protection that has existed until now in this industry is last century.
Its time for a change.
Incidentally, the legal entity of DGCOS is a not for profit members organisation.
Matthew,
Bearing in mind your recent comments I think, if a meeting is to take place between your organisation/s and DGCOS, it would be better if you and I met personally rather than with our area manager.
If you would be kind enough to let me have some dates in August when you are available we can set something up.
so dgcos is a charity! to help thjose poor people who have had windows fitted by unscrupulous window firms.
matthew maybe you can help here with your charity experience!
Tony – fair enough. I’m self deluded.
I’ve been in this industry for most of my life and know mostly decent and honest people.
You’ve been involved for a year or two, but clearly you understand the type of individuals involved far better than me.
And then you quote a small company in Blackpool’s business failure as proof that we’re all part of an industry which is ‘a benchmark for bad practice and dishonesty’. I’m not disputing that there are rogue elements as there are in society in general, and I too have been critical of some of the sales practices of the nationals, but can’t you see that slating an industry as a whole may just alienate some of your potential members?
And, sorry, I stand corrected the DGCOS is a not for profit members organisation. Whilst, the DGCOS Admin Co Ltd as you have previously stated on this blog ‘could make a profit’.
Maybe it’s time you started being ‘clear’ and ‘honest’ about why you got involved in this industry.
Tony – sorry crossed messages.
Regarding a meeting – that’s up to you. West Yorkshire Windows and Conservatory Outlet are different companies and your representative is pitching to WYW. I’m merely sitting in on the meeting out of interest as a fabricator, rather than an installer.
As it stands, I’m sceptical about the DGCOS clearly, but if you feel that there is an advantage in speaking to me directly then I’m happy to meet up in August, although I’m away for the first two weeks.
So this is for the consumers why should we join, Trading standards act for the consumer!
Hey,perhaps I have gone on a tangent but I recently bought a leather sofa that is not leather, perhaps Tony might like to police that industry because I can not find any experts to help. Double glazing has been spanked enough.
Matthew,
• I’ve been involved in and around the home improvement /construction industry since 1992 providing trade association services to contractors and Ombudsman services – in that time I’ve seen every type of installer and most types of arguments-dealing with rogue contractors and professional complainers alike.
• The Blackpool business you mention (Space4Living) was referenced because it is a stand along blog piece put on the Glasstalk site this week: ‘Home Improvement Business Shuts in A Hurry’- it highlights the problems consumers are having every day and makes the point that trade associations/ IBG providers do not provide the robust solution needed.
• The Daily Mail thinks the double glazing industry is ‘a benchmark for bad practice and dishonesty’- not DGCOS.
• DGCOS have never slated the industry as a whole nor do we ever intend to.
• I got involved in setting up this Ombudsman Scheme in this industry because I passionately believe that installers genuinely want a body that they can believe in- that polices members, that has teeth, that can put wrongs right, that can promote them, that can make them proud to say around the dinner table ‘I work in the double glazing industry’.
• If DGCOS Admin Co Ltd is successful, helps DGCOS and its members create a national brand, and attracts 1800 members within 3-4 years, in 10 years I might (if the wind is in the right direction) be able to retire on a small pension of nuts and raisins with the occasional glass of Magners- and the respect of some of the people in the industry (Paul Godwin excluded! (lol))…..cos there’s no conflict of interest there is there!
PS- Sympathetic to your plight, I know a man who has some tablets for that!
The one thing we need as an industry is Escrow.
99% of all these issues would disappear instantly.
The cowboys would give up on the industry that day, and the professional ‘knockers’ would get the mother of all wake up calls.
With Escrow, we would end up with honest companies working for honest customers.
That’s we we all want on here isn’t it? We do not need more policing on the basis that we are ‘the benchmark for bad practice and dishonesty’.
of course every time i go out i wear sack cloth and ashes and sign saying leper because i m so ashamed i work in the double glazing industry!
Has anyone wondered where the inspiration came from for the Which? editorial?
Alex
I am in favour of that idea, an escrow account held so if a business fails the consumer is protected. That sounds like the GGF as deposits taken are protected by GGF members, and the GGF WILL appoint someone else if the business fails.
This needs to be mandatory to have any level of success.
For me, (my view only) I’d go further, I’d like to see directors being personable liable for consumers deposits, and for completing contracts!
That way everyone would get protection. If directors wanted to take out insurance then their past record would be taken into consideration, just like bad car drivers.
Alternatively directors could mitigate their liability by belonging to a body such as the DGcos or the GGF, a scheme that will protect deposits etc
But again, it would have to be mandatory, until then we all get tarred with the double glazing image
Tony,
I got involved in the GGF because I passionately believe that installers genuinely want a body that they can believe in- that polices members, that has teeth, that can put wrongs right, that can promote them, that can make them proud to say around the dinner table ‘I work in the double glazing industry’.
Some of us are just that, very proud of our achievements in the industry, and hoping to do more, and willing to give back to an industry thats given us a good living, without further payment.
Alan Burgess
for and on behalf of masterframe windows ltd
I too know decent operators in this industry and most get annoyed when their hard work gets wiped out by this type of publicity.
We must remember that there are various routes for consumers to resolve problems which should not be ignored or buried. If they are made to believe otherwise then who is doing the misleading?
We all know that you can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time. It is easy for misunderstandings to arise as we all draw expectations from experience, if Mrs Bloggs wants her surface mounted georgian bars mitred like her next door neighbours, why would she know that there are other methods to secure them? This is just an example and most of us work hard to minimise this but we cannot eliminate every one.
Tony,
You mentioned that there were 22,000 people that complained about this industry, out of how many?
Windows Active reported in its October 2009 issue that the industry has an estimated market value of £4.5 billion, so what is the proportion of complaints to the Trading Standards?
Matthew / Andrew, this didnt go up so here it is again:
FAO: Alan Burgess
Your passion for the GGF is admirable. You say you were not speaking on behalf of the GGF. You are a director of the GGF and FENSA. And when you speak about the GGF and say that its use of discretionary arbitrators is the same as a free, mandatory for members, legally binding Ombudsman service then you can hardly say that being a director of the GGF and FENSA isn’t relevant.
Whatever contributors say on Wikipedia, Ombudsman’s services come free. But one of the major differences between the DGCOS and the GGF’s service is whether arbitration is mandatory or optional.
It is mandatory for DGCOS members.
Because arbitration is optional for GGF members, if a dispute gets a little messy for a GGF member and they don’t want to go to arbitration – they don’t have to. They simply opt out. The GGF cannot force them. Where then is the protection in this optional arbitration facility?
The GGF does not have an Ombudsman.
You also say that the GGF is interested in dealing with complaints involving its members.
Could you explain how it investigates complaints about members and puts wrongs right? How does it police members? What does it do if a member treats consumers unfairly or carries out shoddy workmanship and refuses to go back? What does it do if a case goes to arbitration and the member refuses to comply with the award?
And, what is the GGF doing about the complaints highlighted in the recent Which? report about 4 of its largest members?
Tony Pickup
Founder of the Double Glazing & Conservatory Ombudsman Scheme (DGCOS)
Well done , Tony Pickup, i respect and agree with you, on everything you have stated.
Matthew, removes all of my Comments, as he believes Anglian Home Improvements, when it was claimed there is legal action Pending. so he removes all of my Comments, and possibly other comments from others who have complaints regarding this industry, because, Matthew appears to think we are attacking his industry, does Matthew not realise, without Complaints then the Industry is going to go down hill,
as he has seen in the recent witch report, does Matthew think, it stops here ?,
Do you really think Anglian and the other 3 are really Bothered by the latest scandal, they are hard faced, they laugh these incidences off, especially when they have 5 of the largest Banks in the world financing them, using our Public and Government Money to finance their tricks, which as expected they will deny and deny everything.
and when all the dust has hardly had time to settle, been more careful, they will continue to carry on as usual, Anglian in 2005, priced my 1 bedroomed bungalow at £19,000 and the price dropped to £6,675.
All those hard working Companies and the Genuine companies are been wrongly labelled for the Mistakes and dammed right deceptions you have all read through the Witch report, by the Big 4.
Matthew, great things are happening to your Industry, and believe in it, it is only going to be off benefit to all the great Companies out there, Your industry is going through the wash at the Moment to clean it up, Please accept it, it is happening, whether you like it or not.
I am one of those People, a Customer , who had no wish to be dragged into this, but for Anglain Home Improvements, i will not explain, here what they are doing or what they had done, but the evidence is there, and its been shown to the Government and many others, and i am fighting tooth and Nail to have Laws Changed, my MP is not working for me, I have Trading Standards been investigated at the moment, as it also appears your industry is employing serious Criminals these Criminals are entering our homes, with out our Knowledge, Customers, have been Murdered and these companies photograph us, and Black mail us, and threaten us, abuse our Families, etc etc.
Matthew, you have no idea, really, i am not saying all Window companies are the same, and should not be tarnished with what i have explained here, that is why you should not attack the Omnibus Scheme, it is here to clear the Industry up, and give the good Companies a fighting Chance, to protect their Reputations and their Companies, its here to remove the NASTY and vile elements, from your industry, you should be greateful to Tony Pickup, whether you and other Like it or not the Omnibus Scheme is here to stay.
So be greateful to for it, Trading Standards refuses to investigate Frauds and Deceptions it refuses to investigate anything, that is serious, Trading Standards are doing what FENSA and the GGF are doing, they are helping those Companies who are responsible for cowboy works, who put peoples lives in Danger, FENSA and the GGF, In my case and others refused year after year to investigate its Members, those companies who refuse to Comply with building regulations.
Why would Manchester Building Control write and tell me, the only way forward is for Public Exposure, that is how bad it is.
No you would not expect one of the big 4 to be guilty of this would you, so the Witch report validates a lot of what i have been saying for years, and trading standards refused to investigate.
Now i have requested Trading Standards to give me access to all the details of all those Complaints for the last 5 years to be made available, if not i will request this information from them using the FREEDOM of information ACT, and find out why Trading Standards are failing the Consumer, and why they refuse to take actions on those 22,000 cases reported last year alone, and then ask, why did it take a witch report to bring this evidence Forward.
So don’t give Tony a hard time, he has worked very hard, to help you in the industry and help you survive and improve the image of your industry.
Phil – I delete all your comments because I’m not happy to include the opinions of a person who is clearly obsessed beyond all comprehension in their campaign against one company.
You write reams and reams of gibberish and try to post it on my website over and over again. It’s not normal behaviour Phil.
I seriously think you need to drop this obsession for attacking Anglian Home Improvements because it’s making you look silly.
And, the above comment is most definitely the final comment you will make on this website, so please do not waste mine or your time any further.
Thank You
Matthew
Jesus, and I thought I wrote rubbish! You shouldn’t have let the last comment of Phil’s on here!
As a trade supplier it’s a minefield out there. We have an entire team of people here trying to identify the installers who are…
“employing serious Criminals these Criminals are entering our homes, with out our Knowledge, Customers, have been Murdered and these companies photograph us, and Black mail us, and threaten us, abuse our Families, etc etc.” Phil Jennings, 2010.
…so that we don’t sell windows to them. It’s a tough job, and every now and then we let one slip through by mistake.
And surely Tony Pickup needs to get rid of Nick Ross immediately and replace him with a public face of the DGCOS who’s much better suited to cleaning up the problem of murder and blackmail within the double-glazing industry – Batman perhaps?
Fred West worked in double glazing for a while…………
I’m sure if we peeled back the layers of society, most industries have Murderers and rapists and burglars etc working everywhere. I do believe however we have a duty of care to ensure that people who work for our companies are vetted properly especially those working in customers properties. A criminal records check can be requested for any worker and you should judge people via that.
I am confident that my workforce are clean (so to speak) yes one of them I know as a youngster had a brush with the law but he’s 20 years older now, and one of the nicest guys you’d meet.
It’s always good practice to check your staff, easy for a company my size a nightmare for the Anglians and Everests of this industry especially when you consider the high turnover of staff rate..
Hi RGC,
I’ve followed this thread with interest noting the wide disparity of views from various view points within the industry.
Because of the sheer volume of work undertaken over the past two decades or more, it is inevitable that our industry will have attracted high profile criticism, some entirely justified, some perhaps not so.
I believe that the vast majority of companies still operating today have grown with the industry and on the whole try their very best to look after their customers- after all a good reputation and referral continues be the best route to new business. With this in mind let me share with you a recent experience that may give a clue as to why this industry continues to suffer a bad press at times.
My company has over many past years installed scores of conservatories all sourced from within the trade. All of us know that conservatories on the whole tend to attract more service calls pro-rata over their guarantee period, than say windows or secondary glazing, to which end depending on the problem we need to source a variety of spare parts. Recently we have had several calls from customers requesting that we repair some missing rafter end caps. No doubt this could well have been partly attributed to the severe frosts in the winter, having worked loose more than the usual quota. Not too much of a problem to deal with, so we thought we would prepare ourselves for another day and buy in a selection of rafter end caps from the three main manufactures of roofs we have used over the years.
Firstly: Ultra frame. Very easy to deal with, an informative website directed us to the correct department and our order was processed, paid for by credit card and arrived the next day by Royal Mail.
Next Global. An identical order was placed through an existing supplier, paid for CWO and came in the post a couple of days later.
Lastly K2. Directed by a lovely website to the appropriate department. We were asked to follow up our verbal request for rafter end caps with a faxed order, which we duly did. We were told we would be called back for payment details. Subsequent repeated calls from us have not been acted on and we are no further forward and no nearer getting the parts.
Maybe this is an isolated incident, I have no way of gauging otherwise but what really depresses me is that I can’t help wondering how many others, be they from within the trade or homeowners have been rebuffed likewise.
My message to K2: is get your act together. In an industry where- whether we like it or not -the cowboy image still looms large in part of the public mindset, each company within the supply chain has a part to play in showing that we do care about our customers. What ever the merits of the DGCOS scheme, we installers can only do so much on our own.
Hi Ian
You make a very good point about systems companies playing their part. It seems selling and dealing with small items like end caps can be a hassle to some suppliers.
Whilst I cannot comment on your experiences with K2 directly, I would recommend you try one of their fabricators should you not get any joy – eg. Four Seasons Conservatories in Mansfield area, or Tailored Systems in the North West.
Matthew
Matthew, many thanks for your reccomendation, I’m very grateful. However we (Tailored Systems) are a fabricator of Eurocell roofs not K2. we are infact the largest in the country.
So ian i would be very happy to supply you with any remedial parts for a Eurocell roof, or indeed a full roof! however i would agree with Matthew, that if you need K2 parts speak to Phil Foulger at Fourseasons or alternatively Andy Ingman at Northwest Rooftec. both very good K2 fabricators and nice guys.
Pete
Thanks RGC.
I will give other avenues a try.
Pete – oops! I knew it was one of the ‘other’ roof systems. Lol.