Are uPVC windows really good for the environment?
I read with interest Sam Kennedy’s recent article in the Glazine ‘Making the case for PVCu’. He points out an article in the Telegraph magazine – Is it worth it? Double Glazing. I haven’t seen the article, so if anyone knows of an online version please point me in the right direction.
I must admit I struggle to understand whether PVCu (or UPVC) windows and doors are good or bad for the environment. Certainly installing Energy Rated uPVC Windows are shown to have a very positive effect upon insulating our homes.
And clearly if the Energy Rated uPVC windows we install last for 35 years without being replaced, then it should be argued that they be considered to be a wise environmental choice.
Dr Patrick Moore, a founding member of Greenpeace certainly argues the case for uPVC (or vinyl as they call it in the US):
A key part of Patrick Moore’s argument is that Vinyl lasts so much longer than other products, and as for windows I suspect that the maintenance-free USP we have argued for years applies here. Equally, well maintained timber windows, where the timber has been sourced from managed plantations are surely equally sustainable.
The part of the argument I have a problem with is the assertion that vinyl (or uPVC) is easily recycleable. I’m sorry, but I’m not aware of a major part of our industry recycling the first generation of uPVC windows once they have been ripped out. How can installers be recycling these old frames? They’re covered in hardware parts such as hinges, locks and handles, and should have reinforcing steel or aluminium sections inside the profile chambers. They’re also bulky and difficult to unassemble and separate.
It is clear that for the good of the industry we need to be looking at replacing the replacements, but surely we need to be stripping these old frames down and recycling the plastic, glass, steel and other parts attached. Then we can start arguing that uPVC windows are a good choice for helping save the environment.
Your thoughts appreciated!
I would say that yes old windows should be recycled, i would have thought that naturally they would be anyway when the installation company take them away. Wood can only be recycled a certain amount of times before it becomes chipboard or paper, however i think plastic has the potential to be recycled and re-moulded into windows again and again.
[...] I found a uTube video by Dr Patrick Moore. As a founding member of Greenpeace, I thought that his arguments, whether negative or positive, [...]
uPVC windows tend to lose their seal after about five years. They are not recyclable. Worst of all is that they are a blight on our countryside. Tens of thousands of beautiful old buildings across great Britain are being ruined by the installation of the hideous monstrosities. They do not fit in with the architectural style of old buildings. They look totally out of place with their ugly shape and form and the brilliant white of the plastic ruins the look of buildings.
Richard
Complete nonsense. uPVC windows do not lose their seal after five years. They are recyclable – our company recycles over 100 frames every week.
And, as for uPVC windows being a blight on the countryside. You should come and have a look at the lovely cream foiled uPVC windows in my cottage. They look great.
RCG
Recycling UPVC is better than not re-cycling it but is just delaying its ultimate dumping when the non-biodegradeable plastic sits in a land fill site leaching chemicals into the earth. Plus it pollutes in the production process. Wood and metal windows are much more easily recyclable and they biodegrade when the material is no longer useable.
Alun, Why would PVCU ever be dumped at landfill? only by the naive who don’t realise it’s value as a recycled material. I would be interested to see what exactly you could recycle painted /stained timber windows into….. particularly as most of the treatments they have had over the years to stop them going mouldy and rotting contain VOC’s. I would also hardly call ‘metal’ windows easy to recycle.
Perhaps you should have a look here http://www.pvcaware.org
If you can offer simular information on timber and ‘metal’ I would love to see it
UPVC is not only hideous and rapidly destroying a large part of Britain’s unlisted built heritage but also bad for the environment. The amount of energy used in manufacturing U.P.V.C. windows means that it takes 60 years to recoup that once they are fitted. Many plastic windows fitted just 25 years ago are already having to be replaced, so it seems unlikely that many will last long enough to repay the energy invested in them.
The manufacture of U.P.V.C. creates toxic dioxins and, as the recent Camberwell fire proved, when it burns it gives off dangerous fumes and rains burning molten plastic.
English Heritage have recently highlighted the aesthetic menace of these cheap ugly plastic imitation windows and doors on their website; http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/conservationareas. Worth a look if you want to see beyond the propaganda of the people who make and sell this stuff.
Marcus, you don’t seem to be versed very well on the attributes of uPVC.
‘FACT: A typical European PVC production plant would have to operate for 30,000 years to produce the same amount of dioxins released into the atmosphere during bonfire night!’
That was taken from http://www.fightingbackwithfacts.co.uk, you should have a look and absorb it all properly before making ill-informed statements. The uPVC industry has for a while now come to terms that uPVC windows and doors fitted 15-20 years ago weren’t that great. You need to see the new innovations, styles and new woodgrain effects being produced now (which look just as good as timber, and more energy efficient)
Unfortunately , Recycling is largely down to economics , and whether the return on the scrap is worth the investment sorting it (or the fines for tipping it), no matter what the product. All our Ali is weighed in by the lads, some hardware removed for stock , old handles types often come in handy for some old type service work, any hardwood is sent off to a local railway society for carriage restoration work, and all the rest skipped.
How anyone could recycle old softwood timber ,with putty, paint , glass shards and nails is beyond me !!
I think another point is never mentioned or looked into and covered over as I know a friend who’s brother gave up work because he got ill from tghe fumes of UPVC not PVC and I have also but can’t prove it but only got ill doing a certain job and still suffer from it. I will continue to look for others who have suffered the same to see patterns etc.
Also most companies don’t recycle, ours didn’t, only glass. Or aluminium. They do leach out to the groung they are put in and eventually will affect us as we ingest foods grown over old land fills eventually inevitable unless they are uncovered and all is recycled. Fat chance.
I think you’ve been misinformed Dai. The timber industry is very active with spin about other materials but it would be best to stick with the facts.
PVC-U, UPVC or PVC does not give off fumes nor does it leach into the ground whether buried or not. PVC-U is a particularly inert material. Once it is manufactured into profile it lasts, and lasts, and lasts. Many of the windows installed in the 1980s by Local Authorities are being replaced with double glazed frames because they were single glazed to save money. Others are being replaced and upgraded so they are more secure or have better insulation, or because the hardware breaks down and is obsolete. But the PVC-U itself just goes on and on.
Early estimates of its lifetime have had to be revised upwards. PVC-U windows will clearly last 35 years with ease, but the material itself looks good for 70 years or more. It wouldn’t surprise anyone if, like concrete, it lasted much longer. The surface gets grubby and fades after a time, but that’s it. It resists burning and self extinguishes in fire. It doesn’t melt in normal fires. When it does burn, at very high temperatures, and long after timber has burned to a crisp, it does give off some fumes. All materials do. Timber for example gives off far more noxious dioxins than PVC-U which gives off just a trace.
The more we recycle the better. It’s just good house keeping. It’s a waste if we don’t, but buried PVC-U is not a hazard or danger to health.
Now if you are concerned about easily leached materials from the surface of window frames in landfill, consider the nasty materials from the coatings of old timber frames. Like PVC-U windows, timber windows can be recycled. They could be dismantled but you try scraping away the paint and breaking down the window into components. Most timber windows aren’t recycled as you can see from the contents of skips all around the country. Most replaced windows going into landfill are not PVC-U, they are timber. If you want to lie awake worried about window materials leaching into our water supplies, worry about old timber windows.
Martin Randall
Fighting Back With Facts
http://www.fightingbackwithfacts.com
[...] Post by Martin Randall in response to this comment on a previous [...]
Seventy years out of a current style upvc window….God I hope not! The blight of the truly naff inset glazing bars for a lifetime.
I have nothing particularly against the material, but why are no upvc companies able to offer even a halfway convincing looking heritage multi-pane type casement? some attractive casements could compliment the current convincing (if expensive) sliding sash designs
1-Why do all opening casements have to project in a “stormproof” style?
2-The width of the rails on opening casements are enormous- Victorian timber windows averaged at 30mm,upvc not less than 100mm…..why?! This reduction in glass area also reduces daylight…..ever seen the centre upstairs narrow window in 1950s ex police houses to see what I mean! Two opening c/m side by side with centre mullion looks enormous….
3-Are they still fitting glass to new upvc windows as some of it looks like plastic too?
4-Why do upvc windows seem to only be available in white? Heritage properties look great with a mix of shades-for example;black on cill and non opening parts and cream on casements. Why is this not possible?
5-Why do cills look so thin and insubstantial and have untidy cover plates on the end?
6- Are upvc windows capable of supporting a 9″ wall as many period windows end up doing?!
7-What is upvc PAINT about-surely the main benefit is the lack of user applied coatings?!
Lt28 – you might find this post interesting:
http://renegadeconservatoryguy.co.uk/pvc-u-or-timber-sash-windows-can-you-tell-the-difference/
Yes- as stated in the earlier post,recent high-end sliding sash windows (such as shown in the post) can look very convincing! I’m hard pressed to tell the difference at that distance.
The “challenge” now is to create a range of casement windows using the same attention to detail. I’m sure this could benefit the consumer,the industry,and our heritage.